Lindsey, I love this series! Here's my comment on today's feature...They have an 800k/year joint income and live in a 1.4 million dollar home, AND they have the feeling that they'd both like to exit their "high-pressure, high-burnout jobs" soon. It makes me genuinely curious about the question of, "is your wealth and the material lifestyle it allows for *worth* it to you?" It's hard for me to imagine being very wealthy, living in a wealthy community, and being exceptionally stressed/burnt out, especially after having a baby. I don't think I'd trade my current middle income lifestyle for that. I'm curious how they think about/weigh out the decisions they're making around balancing wealth accumulation with overall mental and emotional wellbeing?
I couldn't agree more. Personally, my husband and I made a decision for him to leave "big law" after two, grueling years, because the work load was unsustainable. I never saw him, he wasn't sleeping, and I was just worried about his health and the long term impacts to our marriage and family. He is moving to a mid-size, regional firm with greater chances to become partner and less billable hour requirements. While we're taking a pay cut, I look forward to spending more time with my spouse and to see him more at ease. Would love to hear more from those who also grapple with this issue and what is the sliding scale of income, time, and wellbeing?
Yes, definitely, my husband is a civil servant and I’m an academic and we make comparatively modest salaries (but acknowledge we are better off than most) but we like our jobs, and aren’t in a constant state of stress. We live in a 3 bed house, 1 older car, cycle or walk most places, and with one kid, feel pretty comfortable about life. I just can’t imagine the trade off?
Hi! I have a few responses from “New Jersey Working Mom” to the questions you all asked in the comments!
1. Private School: I recognize this framing wasn't clear. The current plan is to send our child to local public schools in our town from K-12, but I don't yet know whether this will be the right fit all the way through. Given the high and rising costs of private school tuition in our area, the uncertainty around this potential expense makes it one of my money stressors.
2. My career transition: I initially transitioned to a small public-sector consulting firm, where I gained some core consulting skills and then was able to make a lateral move into a large consulting firm focused on private-sector clients.
3. Childcare: We initially planned on daycare, which would have been about half the cost. However, my mat leave ended mid-winter and I worried about the whole family being constantly sick for the first several months, making return-to-work more stressful and creating the need for in-home back-up care either way (based on illness policies). A nanny seemed like the better choice for us at the time my leave was ending, but I definitely see the pros of daycare!
4. The downpayment: It felt important to me to feel like I had an equal stake in our shared home from the outset, even if we then split the mortgage/property taxes based on income. We put 20% down and just got lucky with the interest rate.
i am curious why she seems so set on private school. from the value of her home, i imagine she lives in a nice suburb with good public schools. why not just send your child there?
yeah i'd love to read that and discuss it. lots of middle and upper class anxiety about education, which i get, but also basically all studies show that kids of well educated financially stable parents succeed basically regardless of school environment.
Private school should be kid-specific- and doesn't have to be starting at an early age- you can always make the shift for just high school. Think about it this way: College is "only" 4 years. If you commit to private school at pre-k you are in for 14 years of tuition that can creep up to being close to college in some areas- especially when you add in the pricey extra curricular that are inevitable. If you are paying high taxes to be in a good school district- I highly recommend that be the initial path. If the child has a need for private school for a specific reason, then it might make sense to consider it.
based on her comments about classmates, my guess is that she went to private school and wants the same for her children. I find that a lot of people who went to private chool automatically assume that their kids will as well
When people are talking about good public schools, they are usually talking about schools with good test scores. But almost nobody views maximizing standardized test scores as the most important consideration in educating their child.
If nothing else, public schools tend to be relatively large, which is not an ideal setting for a lot of kids. I grew up poor but my parents were very, very fortunate to be able to secure me a scholarship to small private school. I often think I would have gotten lost in a publc school, even if we'd been weathy and I had been able to go to a "good" one. On the other hand, my sister hated the fancy private school she got into, tranferred to the large neighborhood public schools and ended up doing fantastically well for herself professionally/financially.
So interesting! I really do think it has a lot to do with the kids.
I think the series would work best if you heard from all kinds of families at private schools, including those who are able to secure scholarships or pay on a sliding scale. I remember a friend telling me that in NYC most people aren't paying the sticker price for private school...
I'd be happy to weigh in on this if you do a feature like it. We went through quite the journey of public/private options. Public school is SO different than how it was when I attended it (30+ years ago).
This is an open secret at NYC private schools. 30 percent of tuition is apparently paid by grandparents or other relatives. 30 percent are somewhat subsidized (scholarships, financial aid etc)- and that doesn't mean the full tuition. Many families earning "good" incomes might get say, 10k discount. It is not that different from colleges where the 'retail" tuition is creeping up close to 100K but in reality most students pay a fraction of that.
In my experience from going to college with a bunch of folks like this, it was the standard and expected pipeline for their kids.... fancy prep school, to get them into the best rated/connected college possible, to get them into the best job possible with the connections made at college. Harder to get that $600k+ a year job on Wall Street or whatever if you don't have the college pedigree and connections to get you there. (Obviously just a generalization and I can't speak to the author's rationale though.)
Thanks for this post Lindsey and thanks to the participant for sharing! One question I have for folks who are married with wholly separate finances: how do you plan for big things, like retirement or maybe in this case FIRE? Like how does shared decision-making (we’re going to retire) overlap with totally separate ledgers? I say this without judgement//not a critique. Truly curious give my different experience.
Oh man, Emily! This is a great question! I'll see if I can tackle in a separate story in the future! I too also wondered about planning, but we didn't get into it in our conversation.
Wholly separate finances here, and I just imagine we'll continue to keep our finances separate in retirement. Day to day, we each are responsible for bills individually, and we divvy them up so it's generally even. On big things, like when we had a baby, I paid the bill and he paid me back for half.
As for the decision making, we certainly talk about things, but if I feel confident I can cover the bills I'm responsible for, then I feel at liberty to make whatever decisions I want. When I can continue to pay my half of the bills and retire, I'll do that.
We're really disassociated from each other's finances tbh, and in that respect, live like roommates splitting everything. I don't care how he spends his money as long as he can pay his half of the bills, and I don't answer to him for how I spend mine. It works beautifully!
This is so interesting! As someone in my late-30s with a career in non-profits, I am very interested in how she transitioned to such a lucrative consulting job. The way finances are split seems exhausting to deal with, but I'm glad it works for them!
Two points here: they should both get their emergency funds into a high interest savings account stat- even if they have to open an account at another institution, it’s free money just sitting there that they’re not taking advantage of. And I’m really curious about the charitable giving. I always think of this as the responsibility that comes with being a high earner, and it’s rarely accounted for in FIRE. Is there a reason the author isn’t giving more to charity? Her $2500 a year seems proportionally very low.
Yes! That was my one thought - move that money from checking to a high yield savings account where you can currently make 4% + annually. Also, keeping a lot of money in checking stresses me out - if someone skimmed your debit card and took it all out, I don’t believe the bank is required to make you whole - you are SOL.
I am always intrigued at the comments when couples have separate finances. I also really do not think that people are "curious" about how that works as much as judging. It seems to work for them, does not seem to be a source of stress or something that bothers her.... so why make this an issue? I really hated the inference that they must not be as committed to their marriage if their finance are separate... come on!!!
I spent way more time than I intended scrutinizing this -- great job, Lindsey! I find the level to which this married couple splits their finances uncomfortable on numerous levels and I'd be curious about how they are each dividing household chores and childcare. I like Ramit Sethi a lot, as the commenter below mentioned. He's great. On a separate note, this couple's philosophy goes against Dave Ramsey's, who is adamant about married couples also combining finances -- everything "ours," period.
I've talked to SO many couples over the years and I've seen it all. At this point, I take a very Amy Poehler approach (good for you, not for me!). Ken and I combined everything when we got married and never looked back, but I also get that doesn't work for everyone. :)
Brad Wilcox has mentioned that the data support combining finances. It makes people happier in their marriage, apparently. I know a lot of people tout the value of avoiding conflict over everyday expenditures, but I think there miss the opportunity to develop conflict resolution skills over relatively minor stuff (hobby expenses! Restaurants!) which leaves you with no practice if you have a big money conflict.
Me too. (At least from my experience!) But I'm sure other couples feel like their lives are no less shared even with separate finances. And of course, there's always horror stories of wives losing everything from their shared accounts when the husband splits.
She’s done very well for herself but I was concerned about the splitting of everything. It sounds exhausting. Maybe when they have another kid, they’ll consider a joint account they can both pay into for family expenses? Fascinating!
I really love this column, Lindsey, thank you! I’m curious about the down payment for their house. I have a similar mortgage payment - but the house cost was much lower and interest rate much higher. I’m wondering if it’s all interest or if there was a particularly large down payment. (And daydreaming of the 1.9% rate we had to give up 😭)
Man, i see where this mom is frugal and really principled, and I so appreciated hearing that she struggles with comparison as well. I think I needed to hear that today! Thanks for sharing 💕
I'm new here so forgive me if I'm way off base but the other personal finance writer I follow and love is Ramit Sethi of "I will teach you to be rich." His podcast looks at couples and how they prioritize their money and urges them to live a rich life.
Not way off base, Nikki! I love to hear where people get their financial advice. I know Ramit (not personally, ha, but his work). But thank you for sharing! :)
Just wanted to pop in to say - thank you for sharing stories from all ranges of income and wealth! I learn something from each story, despite if the woman makes more or less than me.
I'm so intrigued by how we gain our 'sense of capital,' whether that's money, assets, or other resources. Reading about how this person has that sense of comparison and context relative to others, having been surrounded by people who were very financially well-off, etc...very sobering. I think a lot (too much) about money and how much/little I am paid for my labor, and I know that some of my thinking comes from having grown up with financial insecurities and never having enough money to meet all material needs. The way this all gets layered into emotional needs too -- what is 'enough'? does planning a life with money benefit us or create harm? -- is fascinating. Thanks!
I had some similar thoughts after reading this - is it possible to just decide that you’re worth 200k a year and go ahead and ask for it, even if you weren’t surrounded by higher salaries growing up? Or is that mind shift / culture shift usually too difficult to cross as an individual and do you need to be securely surrounded by other wealthy folks before making that leap? The psychology of wealth/poverty is so interesting I feel like we don’t talk about it enough
lindsey - loved this so much! as someone who lives in the tri-state area, this type of household income is common and it's interesting to hear about the mother's take on priorities and social pressures. the nanny expense is really interesting to me (as someone who will eventually need childcare when returning to work in nyc ). she notes that the cost is more than their mortgage (i see that 2.85% rate and i salute her!!!!) and obviously that's a choice she and her husband are making. would she mind commenting on her decision here and whether they weighed other options.
I love this series so much. As a long time reader of money diaries, I'm so glad this has continued on Substack! And I love this format even more.
I'm currnetly ten years into a career in big law, so I defintely related to the conflicting desires of wanting less burnout/stress, more time, and less envy/comparison. She kind of glazed over their desire to "retire" in 10-15 years, but I'm curious about how they are working to ward that, especially in a HCOL area/desire for private school and all the other things that come often accompany a job with the "golden handcuffs". I also agree with the other commenters - I would love an exploration into how couples decide to split or combine finances. It seems like just another thing I'd have in my mental load, but it seems to work for a lot of people!
Lindsey, I love this series! Here's my comment on today's feature...They have an 800k/year joint income and live in a 1.4 million dollar home, AND they have the feeling that they'd both like to exit their "high-pressure, high-burnout jobs" soon. It makes me genuinely curious about the question of, "is your wealth and the material lifestyle it allows for *worth* it to you?" It's hard for me to imagine being very wealthy, living in a wealthy community, and being exceptionally stressed/burnt out, especially after having a baby. I don't think I'd trade my current middle income lifestyle for that. I'm curious how they think about/weigh out the decisions they're making around balancing wealth accumulation with overall mental and emotional wellbeing?
Ooh that's a good question and something I think about a lot! Maybe it's something to ask high earners going forward! Thank you!
I couldn't agree more. Personally, my husband and I made a decision for him to leave "big law" after two, grueling years, because the work load was unsustainable. I never saw him, he wasn't sleeping, and I was just worried about his health and the long term impacts to our marriage and family. He is moving to a mid-size, regional firm with greater chances to become partner and less billable hour requirements. While we're taking a pay cut, I look forward to spending more time with my spouse and to see him more at ease. Would love to hear more from those who also grapple with this issue and what is the sliding scale of income, time, and wellbeing?
that's a lot of what I was thinking about, too, and I appreciate that you were able to phrase it so generously!
Yes, definitely, my husband is a civil servant and I’m an academic and we make comparatively modest salaries (but acknowledge we are better off than most) but we like our jobs, and aren’t in a constant state of stress. We live in a 3 bed house, 1 older car, cycle or walk most places, and with one kid, feel pretty comfortable about life. I just can’t imagine the trade off?
Hi! I have a few responses from “New Jersey Working Mom” to the questions you all asked in the comments!
1. Private School: I recognize this framing wasn't clear. The current plan is to send our child to local public schools in our town from K-12, but I don't yet know whether this will be the right fit all the way through. Given the high and rising costs of private school tuition in our area, the uncertainty around this potential expense makes it one of my money stressors.
2. My career transition: I initially transitioned to a small public-sector consulting firm, where I gained some core consulting skills and then was able to make a lateral move into a large consulting firm focused on private-sector clients.
3. Childcare: We initially planned on daycare, which would have been about half the cost. However, my mat leave ended mid-winter and I worried about the whole family being constantly sick for the first several months, making return-to-work more stressful and creating the need for in-home back-up care either way (based on illness policies). A nanny seemed like the better choice for us at the time my leave was ending, but I definitely see the pros of daycare!
4. The downpayment: It felt important to me to feel like I had an equal stake in our shared home from the outset, even if we then split the mortgage/property taxes based on income. We put 20% down and just got lucky with the interest rate.
i am curious why she seems so set on private school. from the value of her home, i imagine she lives in a nice suburb with good public schools. why not just send your child there?
Mindy, that might be an interesting series. To hear from families about why they decided on private school. (And how much they pay!)
yeah i'd love to read that and discuss it. lots of middle and upper class anxiety about education, which i get, but also basically all studies show that kids of well educated financially stable parents succeed basically regardless of school environment.
Private school should be kid-specific- and doesn't have to be starting at an early age- you can always make the shift for just high school. Think about it this way: College is "only" 4 years. If you commit to private school at pre-k you are in for 14 years of tuition that can creep up to being close to college in some areas- especially when you add in the pricey extra curricular that are inevitable. If you are paying high taxes to be in a good school district- I highly recommend that be the initial path. If the child has a need for private school for a specific reason, then it might make sense to consider it.
based on her comments about classmates, my guess is that she went to private school and wants the same for her children. I find that a lot of people who went to private chool automatically assume that their kids will as well
When people are talking about good public schools, they are usually talking about schools with good test scores. But almost nobody views maximizing standardized test scores as the most important consideration in educating their child.
In big cities, "good school" means "will my kid get into X-caliber college."
100% agree with this! Not all kids succeed emotionally and otherwise in an environment focused on test scores.
If nothing else, public schools tend to be relatively large, which is not an ideal setting for a lot of kids. I grew up poor but my parents were very, very fortunate to be able to secure me a scholarship to small private school. I often think I would have gotten lost in a publc school, even if we'd been weathy and I had been able to go to a "good" one. On the other hand, my sister hated the fancy private school she got into, tranferred to the large neighborhood public schools and ended up doing fantastically well for herself professionally/financially.
So interesting! I really do think it has a lot to do with the kids.
I think the series would work best if you heard from all kinds of families at private schools, including those who are able to secure scholarships or pay on a sliding scale. I remember a friend telling me that in NYC most people aren't paying the sticker price for private school...
I'd be happy to weigh in on this if you do a feature like it. We went through quite the journey of public/private options. Public school is SO different than how it was when I attended it (30+ years ago).
This is an open secret at NYC private schools. 30 percent of tuition is apparently paid by grandparents or other relatives. 30 percent are somewhat subsidized (scholarships, financial aid etc)- and that doesn't mean the full tuition. Many families earning "good" incomes might get say, 10k discount. It is not that different from colleges where the 'retail" tuition is creeping up close to 100K but in reality most students pay a fraction of that.
In my experience from going to college with a bunch of folks like this, it was the standard and expected pipeline for their kids.... fancy prep school, to get them into the best rated/connected college possible, to get them into the best job possible with the connections made at college. Harder to get that $600k+ a year job on Wall Street or whatever if you don't have the college pedigree and connections to get you there. (Obviously just a generalization and I can't speak to the author's rationale though.)
Thanks for this post Lindsey and thanks to the participant for sharing! One question I have for folks who are married with wholly separate finances: how do you plan for big things, like retirement or maybe in this case FIRE? Like how does shared decision-making (we’re going to retire) overlap with totally separate ledgers? I say this without judgement//not a critique. Truly curious give my different experience.
Oh man, Emily! This is a great question! I'll see if I can tackle in a separate story in the future! I too also wondered about planning, but we didn't get into it in our conversation.
Great question!
Wholly separate finances here, and I just imagine we'll continue to keep our finances separate in retirement. Day to day, we each are responsible for bills individually, and we divvy them up so it's generally even. On big things, like when we had a baby, I paid the bill and he paid me back for half.
As for the decision making, we certainly talk about things, but if I feel confident I can cover the bills I'm responsible for, then I feel at liberty to make whatever decisions I want. When I can continue to pay my half of the bills and retire, I'll do that.
We're really disassociated from each other's finances tbh, and in that respect, live like roommates splitting everything. I don't care how he spends his money as long as he can pay his half of the bills, and I don't answer to him for how I spend mine. It works beautifully!
I feel like this is the next thing to try for me and my husband. We have really struggled with sharing finances over the last...decade? I
Thanks for your reply, Jennifer!
This is so interesting! As someone in my late-30s with a career in non-profits, I am very interested in how she transitioned to such a lucrative consulting job. The way finances are split seems exhausting to deal with, but I'm glad it works for them!
Career transitions could be a great future series!
Ditto the interest in the career switch! Particularly from public-sector or not-for-profit to corporate (or corporate adjacent).
Amy I am wondering the same! I am 54 and was never able to make that change. I'm hoping you'll learn how to do it while you're still young! ;)
Two points here: they should both get their emergency funds into a high interest savings account stat- even if they have to open an account at another institution, it’s free money just sitting there that they’re not taking advantage of. And I’m really curious about the charitable giving. I always think of this as the responsibility that comes with being a high earner, and it’s rarely accounted for in FIRE. Is there a reason the author isn’t giving more to charity? Her $2500 a year seems proportionally very low.
Yes! That was my one thought - move that money from checking to a high yield savings account where you can currently make 4% + annually. Also, keeping a lot of money in checking stresses me out - if someone skimmed your debit card and took it all out, I don’t believe the bank is required to make you whole - you are SOL.
I am always intrigued at the comments when couples have separate finances. I also really do not think that people are "curious" about how that works as much as judging. It seems to work for them, does not seem to be a source of stress or something that bothers her.... so why make this an issue? I really hated the inference that they must not be as committed to their marriage if their finance are separate... come on!!!
I spent way more time than I intended scrutinizing this -- great job, Lindsey! I find the level to which this married couple splits their finances uncomfortable on numerous levels and I'd be curious about how they are each dividing household chores and childcare. I like Ramit Sethi a lot, as the commenter below mentioned. He's great. On a separate note, this couple's philosophy goes against Dave Ramsey's, who is adamant about married couples also combining finances -- everything "ours," period.
Thanks so much, Stacey!
I've talked to SO many couples over the years and I've seen it all. At this point, I take a very Amy Poehler approach (good for you, not for me!). Ken and I combined everything when we got married and never looked back, but I also get that doesn't work for everyone. :)
Brad Wilcox has mentioned that the data support combining finances. It makes people happier in their marriage, apparently. I know a lot of people tout the value of avoiding conflict over everyday expenditures, but I think there miss the opportunity to develop conflict resolution skills over relatively minor stuff (hobby expenses! Restaurants!) which leaves you with no practice if you have a big money conflict.
I think that approach is very conducive to building a shared life.
Me too. (At least from my experience!) But I'm sure other couples feel like their lives are no less shared even with separate finances. And of course, there's always horror stories of wives losing everything from their shared accounts when the husband splits.
She’s done very well for herself but I was concerned about the splitting of everything. It sounds exhausting. Maybe when they have another kid, they’ll consider a joint account they can both pay into for family expenses? Fascinating!
I agree. I believe it's okay to have separate finances, but with his income, he could just pay for the mortgage. 🤗
I really love this column, Lindsey, thank you! I’m curious about the down payment for their house. I have a similar mortgage payment - but the house cost was much lower and interest rate much higher. I’m wondering if it’s all interest or if there was a particularly large down payment. (And daydreaming of the 1.9% rate we had to give up 😭)
Man, i see where this mom is frugal and really principled, and I so appreciated hearing that she struggles with comparison as well. I think I needed to hear that today! Thanks for sharing 💕
I'm new here so forgive me if I'm way off base but the other personal finance writer I follow and love is Ramit Sethi of "I will teach you to be rich." His podcast looks at couples and how they prioritize their money and urges them to live a rich life.
Not way off base, Nikki! I love to hear where people get their financial advice. I know Ramit (not personally, ha, but his work). But thank you for sharing! :)
Just wanted to pop in to say - thank you for sharing stories from all ranges of income and wealth! I learn something from each story, despite if the woman makes more or less than me.
I'm so intrigued by how we gain our 'sense of capital,' whether that's money, assets, or other resources. Reading about how this person has that sense of comparison and context relative to others, having been surrounded by people who were very financially well-off, etc...very sobering. I think a lot (too much) about money and how much/little I am paid for my labor, and I know that some of my thinking comes from having grown up with financial insecurities and never having enough money to meet all material needs. The way this all gets layered into emotional needs too -- what is 'enough'? does planning a life with money benefit us or create harm? -- is fascinating. Thanks!
I had some similar thoughts after reading this - is it possible to just decide that you’re worth 200k a year and go ahead and ask for it, even if you weren’t surrounded by higher salaries growing up? Or is that mind shift / culture shift usually too difficult to cross as an individual and do you need to be securely surrounded by other wealthy folks before making that leap? The psychology of wealth/poverty is so interesting I feel like we don’t talk about it enough
lindsey - loved this so much! as someone who lives in the tri-state area, this type of household income is common and it's interesting to hear about the mother's take on priorities and social pressures. the nanny expense is really interesting to me (as someone who will eventually need childcare when returning to work in nyc ). she notes that the cost is more than their mortgage (i see that 2.85% rate and i salute her!!!!) and obviously that's a choice she and her husband are making. would she mind commenting on her decision here and whether they weighed other options.
I love this series so much. As a long time reader of money diaries, I'm so glad this has continued on Substack! And I love this format even more.
I'm currnetly ten years into a career in big law, so I defintely related to the conflicting desires of wanting less burnout/stress, more time, and less envy/comparison. She kind of glazed over their desire to "retire" in 10-15 years, but I'm curious about how they are working to ward that, especially in a HCOL area/desire for private school and all the other things that come often accompany a job with the "golden handcuffs". I also agree with the other commenters - I would love an exploration into how couples decide to split or combine finances. It seems like just another thing I'd have in my mental load, but it seems to work for a lot of people!